Angus Herd Talk
Discussions with Registered Angus Breeders across America about their operations, breeding philosophies and herd sires used in the past and present.
Angus Herd Talk
Ellingson Angus
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In this episode I talk with Chad Ellingson from Ellingson Angus. This is episode 1.
Welcome to Angus Herd Talk. On this episode, I'm talking with Chad Ellington from Ellington Angus in St. Anthony, North Dakota. Hey Chad, welcome to the show. Hey, thanks for having me on the show this morning. Absolutely. This is actually taking a little while for you and I to get this thing going. I think I called you maybe a year ago to possibly put this together. So I'm going to start this episode going a little different direction than I normally do. Chad, you used to work for Gen X doing procurement, and I probably got lots of questions about how that whole deal goes. But first of all, how did you get into that career?
SPEAKER_01Okay, so right out of college, I actually started with a company at that time, a company called 21st Century Genetics. It actually was a cooperative that was based out of Wisconsin. I started a sales representative for them right out of college, covered western North Dakota and eastern Montana, did that for a couple of years. At that time, 21st Century Genetics did not have a very large presence in say Montana West. So I kind of forged that territory, doing more marketing in Montana and so forth. And at that time, actually, it was kind of the air of the most popular programs in the Angus breed, probably were in Montana at that time. That's when Van Dyke, Angus, Gardner Didow, Angus, of course, the Sitzes, all of them had a large number of bulls in the AI offering. And so I spent a lot of time out there. In those first couple years, 21st Century Genetics would have procured a few more bulls out of Montana. I I had the opportunity to work with a lot of those producers and so forth and learn a lot about their programs. So during that process, not only did I become a sales representative for genetics or actually 21st Century Genetics, I actually had the opportunity because I would see those programs and those bulls and so forth, that they had me start traveling the country to talk at producer meetings about these bulls. So I became halftime sales representative, halftime in the beef department, or a person that the beef worked closely with the beef department. And in 1998, 21st Century Genetics would have would have merged with another AI cooperative out of the East, or actually two other AI cooperatives, Federated Genetics out of New York and NOBA, which was based out of Ohio. Actually, NOBA would have been the first AI company in the United States ever. They had the stud code one. So when that happened, those three iStud cooperatives merged. I had the opportunity to actually move to Wisconsin. I turned declined that opportunity to move there because I we had roots in North Dakota and we kind of liked living in the West here. But they still did allow me, or they still did offer me the position to become Beef Sider Procurement Manager for the new formed cooperative of Gen X. So that over the next 12 years, I worked as Beef Sire Procurement Analyst for Gen X, had the opportunity to travel the country and internationally and procure the the whole beef bowl lineup for Gen X during that time. And it was a great opportunity to have to work with you know many of the what I'd call front-end producers.
SPEAKER_00Chad, I got a question for you. We'll come back to the Gen X role. Where did you go to college at?
SPEAKER_01So I went to Bismarck State College in Dickinson and Dickinson here in North Dakota to uh two local colleges. So that kind of had an agricultural background, got an ag sales degree. So I actually was sent out to to do more on the marketing side, and I'd like that. But then, you know, my roots were in the cattle business, and you know, just I had that opportunity with the AI company and just kind of rolled on from there and you know got heavily involved with procurement and so forth. So yeah, a great opportunity that that I was allowed to have early in life from an AI company, and they put a lot of trust in me. When I became Beef Star Procurement Manager, I was still in my middle 20s. So that that was an excellent opportunity that allowed me to kind of grow and and learn a lot more and had the opportunity to learn from some of the very best producers in the United States. Did they give you a credit card and a pickup to travel the city? Boy, they yeah, they allowed me to travel the nation on their dime. And you know, luckily I was fortunate enough to land some pretty good bulls over that time that that we had a pretty prospering organization at Gen X and beef department and a growing organization when I was there. How did you fare out a stud prospect? So when when I was at Gen X, we put a lot of, and at that time we put a lot of emphasis on maternal value. You know, we had we actually always made sure that we would see the dam before we would bring a bull into stud. That was kind of a our policy at GenX. We always went and seen the dams. Of course, you know, bringing a bull into stud, it it takes a combination of a good set of numbers, phenotypically and structurally right and the material right. So it, you know, it's a balance of everything. That's in the days that the sire summary came out every six months. So we would get a sire summary in January, we'd also get one in July. So you would study, you'd you would be waiting for the minute that those sire summaries came out to do some sire sorts, see some bulls that you know had some progeny turned in and that were good young prospect bulls that might have limited progeny that you could go procure, and also finding sons of those bulls. So from a number standpoint, you would analyze that, but then you take the next step and go see if the the animals firsthand, see the bull firsthand, see the maternal lineage behind them firsthand. So, you know, we tried to put everything together and land the best bulls that would be, you know, sell from a marketing standpoint, from a number standpoint, but then have a long-lasting impact from a maternal standpoint. Because really, when you look at the history of AI, a lot of the bulls that have been utilized and high usage bulls have been bullshit that would, you know, first be cavine's and then secondly guys' AI to get replacement females. I think those are the two big things. When you can really look at the bulls that have had a large impact on semen sales, they've been bulls that you know they could be bred to a heifer because a lot more heifers get AI'd, and then secondly, make replacement females for the rancher that would stick around for a long time. So, you know, those are two pretty high criteria for us when we were procuring bulls.
SPEAKER_00I was talking to a gentleman the other day, and he's a smaller producer trying to get his feet set in the industry. He was asking me a question how does a smaller breeder, not so much a small breeder, but a breeder that doesn't have the name brand, how would you procure one of their bulls? Or would you skip them?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So, you know, so we're talking 15 years ago. It's been 15 years since I procured a bull for an AI stud. So maybe a lot has changed in the last 15 years. But, you know, I did a lot of producer meetings around the country during my duration at Gen X and procuring bulls. And I had that question come up a lot of times that they would say, How do we breed a bull to get in an AI stud? I said, first and foremost, forget about breeding a bull to get an AI stuck. Breed a bull that'll make an impact for the commercial cow calf industry and for the whole industry as a beef industry in itself. Breed cattle that will first and foremost have an impact there. And then when you get focused on that, maybe one or two will sift to the top that'll have the opportunity to be an impactful bull that will be used, utilized AI. It's nothing about guys have this mindset that they want to breed a bull for the AI industry. Never have that mindset. Have the mindset I want to breed cattle that will make a lasting impact on the beef industry from a commercial cow calf standpoint, all the way through the feedlot chain that will be impact. And then if you breed enough of them, one will sift to the top sometime or another that'll have be want to be utilized from an AI standpoint. And today I, you know, things have changed to where I think a lot of small producers have the opportunity to get bulls and AI studs. You know, the disadvantage that a smaller producer has is they don't have a large contemporary group. Sometimes that hinders them a bit because I always felt it was easier to, when I was procuring cattle, if you picked a bull that sifted to the top of 200 contemporaries versus sifted to the top of 10 contemporaries, it probably meant a lot more that bull was at the top of a large contemporary group. Now that doesn't mean that a small producer can't have as good a bull that would sift to the top of 250 bulls. That's not the case at all. But it is an advantage in a large to a large producer, I feel that you know there's just more contemporaries and they've got more competition. So that's the advantage that large producers probably have, and that's probably why more larger producers have dominated in the AI industry. Nothing, I don't think it has anything to do other than that, it's large contemporary groupings. But that does not say a small producer, smaller producer cannot get a bowl on AI stead. And, you know, actually, since I've been at since I left the AI industry and are on our own as seed stock producers, and we were, you know, during my duration at Gen X too, we always were seed stock producers. But even since my time of leaving Gen X and doing our own operation here to a larger scale, we've gone and selected bulls and bought really good cleanup bulls from smaller producers that have been impactful. And in fact, ones that even have gone on and joined AI studs after we purchased them.
SPEAKER_00So there is opportunity. Yeah, we're gonna actually talk about a couple of those later in this episode. Did you ever go to any bull tests to dig out prospects? Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know, during that time when I was at Genix, bull tests were a pretty big deal at that time. I think maybe even more than they are today. You know, you would always make sure, and every AI stud was always at Midland Bull test. And I think they still are today. It's still a very reputable bull test. But at that time, I would say that that was a very big deal. Some of the top bulls being utilized every year, usually the top bull, at least out of Midland, and some of the other bull tests also, they would they would get quite a bit of recognition. So yeah, definitely at that time was very important. And I think it still is today. But you know, as we've got more data opportunities and so forth, maybe some of that slipped away just a bit.
SPEAKER_00Now you were doing this before genomics came out. Correct. Um, what are your feelings on genomics now being used by these studs?
SPEAKER_01So I think you know, we got to look at all tools in the toolbox. You know, guys will get down on EPDs, they'll get down on genomics, they'll get down on selecting cattle for phenotype only, they'll get down on different aspects. My thought is use all of them. We've got everything available there. Don't just select cattle utilizing one tool. Genomics, you know, when they first came out, I've in the early stages I felt they're pretty inaccurate. And that I think in the early stages of performance testing and EPDs, people probably felt the same way. You know, when the first EPDs came out, they were probably pretty inaccurate because there wasn't enough data in there being utilized. And I think the same with genomics. As we get more data and the the data gets trained a bit more in, you know, the genomics are only accurate if the data that's going in is accurate. So I think genomics has gotten a fair amount more accurate, especially on the different traits that are have a fair amount of data behind them and phenotypes, you know, from birth white and the weaning weights and the carcass information. I think those genomic figures are getting fairly accurate. And I'm seeing a lot more accuracy as we've been genomic testing our herd, the whole calf crop for a number of years. And I think we found it to be a lot more accurate as as we've gotten through the years, especially on those traits that have a lot of phenotypes behind them.
SPEAKER_00There's gotta be a lot of data turned in for the accuracies to to increase and get better and better.
SPEAKER_01What my worry is on genomics is I feel like from a breed, and probably maybe all breeds are like this. I feel like there's a lot of producers today that are just getting genomics. They've they're forgetting about turning in performance data. They're forgetting about ultrasounding. And we really need that data and those phenotypes to come in, whether it's birth whites, weaning white, yearling whites, maternal data. I mean, I'm a very big proponent of turning in maternal data. I think you need, you know, I if it was myself, I wish we would make it mandatory that you turn in data on cow data as far as you know, when she calves, why she didn't calf, why she was called. I think those things are essential to getting correct genomic data also because your phenotypes that you turn in train the genomic data. And you know, if we as a breed quit turning in performance data and data in general, just relying on genomics is gonna get us inaccurate. So I am very much for that, that I wish everybody would still turn in every birth white, every yearling white, still ultrasound, still turn in cow data, heifer pregnancy data. You know, we've turned in heifer pregnancy data for many years, and we can we have now been able to we can sort out cow lines and so forth that have more fertility, don't have as much fertility. I think a lot of that's very essential.
SPEAKER_00Chad, I got a question for you on this lack of data being turned in. I'm gonna pick on the carcass guys, the carcass and terminal guys. They're the ones that are not turning in the data for the most part. We're seeing these high carcass, high dollar sea bowls. They'll have 2,000 genomics turned in and four ahead of actual data. What do you think the association should do to help fix that? I know they just came out with these tiers of awards for turning in so much data, but that's not a financial incentive. You know, somebody like me, I don't want a brownie button for turning in things I ought to. Right. So here's my thoughts on that.
SPEAKER_01I'm gonna I'm gonna twist this around a little bit. I'm not gonna pick on what I'd call guys just breeding for terminal indexes. I'd I would say that as a breeding whole, we're lacking turning in data. Because I I can see guys that are more in the mindset they're wanting to breed more for carcass genetics. They're, you know, maybe they're not turning in as much data, but I also see it on the maternal side. I see a lot of guys that that would call themselves maternally influenced herds that aren't turning in their maternal data either, whether it be heifer pregnancy and so forth. So I think as all breeders across the association, we could do a better job of turning in data. So I'm not going to pick on one or the other because I think it's across all different mindsets of breeding that because I think in reality, a lot more ultrasound and carcass information has been turned in the last 20 years, and that has really probably been more of the focus of EPDs, and we've lacked turning in maternal data, and I think that's why we've somewhat got away from as much of a maternal influence in the breed, and it's kind of driven more towards the terminal indexes because more of that data has been turned in. So I'm not going to pick on the on more of the carcass guys. I think I think we need to do a better job across the whole breed. And as far as how do we solve that, yeah, I agree. There, you know, it needs to be monetarily influenced. I think there needs to be either, you know, getting some kind of deduction as far as from your overall bill or even yet, I guess this is probably pretty extreme. But you know, I wouldn't rule out that that EPD boxes need to be left open if you're not turning in data. And I know that sounds pretty extreme, and maybe that is too extreme, but we need somewhat of a wake-up call in the breed that we need to continue to turn in performance data across all aspects from terminal measurements to maternal in measurements. They all need to be turned in because they're all very important.
SPEAKER_00I agree with you on a lot of what you said. I also believe that the association needs to make maternal plus free. We shouldn't have to pay for that to give them data. Yeah. Seems kind of goofy to me that we're paying an extra amount to give them data which they desperately need.
SPEAKER_01That's on all data though. I mean, it's you turn you if you turn in ultrasound, you gotta pay for it also. So maybe there's needs to be incentives, you know. The guys that are turning in the data, uh, you don't have to pay to turn the data in because it's fairly important data. So, you know, all different measurements you're paying to submit the data. So, yeah, I agree. We've been on Maternal Plus for a number of years, probably about eight, nine years since probably since about the first year it was out. And we just do not pay for it because we think it's the essential data be turned in, but that's all data. It's all data in all aspects, in my opinion. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00All right, let's go back to procurement because there's some pretty highfalutin bulls over the years that you've procured. Now there has to be a whole bunch of them if you were there from the onset. But let's start out with double. I'm pretty sure you picked him up and tell the story about getting a hold of him. Traveler 004.
SPEAKER_01You know, that bull would have landed at my brother-in-law, Kelly Schaff, would have would have bought that bull as a young bull out of the high field, I think it was a high field dispersion. And a bull that he utilized quite heavily in, you know, in the early set there. I think I would have procured that bull as a two-year-old bull. And then that bull would have been pretty influential, you know, in the breed at the Shawfangus Valley program. He would have, you know, they would have sold a number of sons that would have went to a number of AI studs. But yeah, a bull that one of the early bulls that that I would have procured in in at GenX and had a big influence at Gen X, and a couple of his sons did too. The SAV Density Bull and SAV Net Worth, two bulls that you know had a good career at Gen X that I would have procured also that been pretty influential during that time.
SPEAKER_00Now, density's career in the United States wasn't outstanding. It was decent, it was outstanding, but didn't he internationally have a lot more effect?
SPEAKER_01So density when he sold, actually, density and net worth would have sold the same day in the same sale. At that during that, we would have bought density. Jennix would have bought density that day that he sold. We would have bought him in in conjunction with Steve Hanbury out of Australia. Steve would have been a close breeder friend from Australia that spent a lot of time in the United States and put together a lot of really good American cattle that he took to Australia. And he would have bought, purchased the density with Jennics on sale day that day. And so that bull did have a large influence in Australia. It was utilized quite a bit there, and then also utilized quite a bit in South America, especially in Argentina. He would have had a big run in Argentina. Then, like I say, the net worth bull would have would have sold the same day. Net worth actually would have went would have been, I believe, the high-selling bull that day at 110,000. Density brought 50,000 on the day that he sold it, if I recall my numbers correctly. And that bull, then we would have leased to probably about a year later net worth. And obviously, net worth would have would have had a lot larger influence in the United States than density and a lot larger usage.
SPEAKER_00So 004, that was that was a huge win for you and Gen X. Final answer. Talk to us about final answer and getting a hold of that bull.
SPEAKER_01So final answer would have, you know, I can't take 100% credit for that bull landing at Gen X. That bull would have would have actually been purchased. By Ulta Genetics, they would have purchased final answer out of the the 2001 SAB sale. That bull would have would have been purchased by Bruce Gordon. I take that back. No, it might have not even been 2001. I've got to think of yeah, it would have been 2001 because that bull's tattoo would have been five, so he would have been sold in 2001. Well, about in the next year, we would have purchased Gen X. I'm saying would have purchased Alta Genetics Beef Department. With that, we would have gotten uh a nice lineup of a few bulls that would have been quite influential bulls. One of them, you know, in the final answer was just a two-year-old bull at the time that we would have purchased, purchased Alta Genetics. So we would have gotten final answer from that transaction. We would have also gotten future direction. Um Alberta Traveler 416. So all those bulls would have been bulls that would have been procured by Bruce Gordon. Willie Altenberg would have also been at Ulta Genetics at that time. So at the time, so we as Gen X purchased Ulta Genetics, we would have got their beef department and some of those influential bull influential bulls, and also Willie Altenberg would have come to to work for Gen X in that transaction and would have given up his AI career at that time at and would have gone on to other businesses. But yeah, those I can't take 100% credit for final answer just because yeah, we did make the purchase of Ulta, but that bull really had to give the credit to Bruce Gordon for that. Alberta Traveler, that was a blast from the past. Yeah, that bull was, you know, a good bull in his time. Another bull that would have come to us to Gen X uh through that transaction was CH Quantum. So a few bulls that, you know, kind of, like you say, blast from the past would have been really good bulls in their time. And Future Direction was a bull that, you know, come to us through that. He was being utilized extremely hard. Of course, then he kind of fell off. It was some of the I think it I'm trying to think of what defect he would have come up with, but you know, kind of his career would have abruptly because of that, one of the genetic defects. He came from Ulta. Future Direction did. Yes, he did. And in fact, here's the other thing. They actually owned Ulta Genetics would have owned Future Directions Dam. And so we actually would have gotten Future Directions Dam in that transaction. And that's back in the days. We used to have Gen X influence sales. We would have had, we would have had influence sales customers of Gen X could could offer, you know, uh a unique daughter of a highlight bull or something. We had those sales in Denver. Usually we had one in, I mean, I shouldn't say we usually we had a couple in Denver. We had, I know we had one in one time. We also had one in at Fort Payne, Alabama at Randy Owens place. I was thinking of that is when we had the Gen X influence sale in the Southeast there at Randy Owens location, we would have sold Future Directions Dam in that sale. Was BC Marathon was he part of the Gen X lineup? No, BC Marathon would have been a bull that that I would have procured. I would have procured bulls like from Bill Conley, BC Marathon, BC Matrix, you know, two two bulls there. And Matrix really did a tremendous job of leaving behind some really good daughters. But was Marathon part of Gen X? Was he in? Yeah, Marathon was part of Gen X. He's a bull that I would have procured for Gen X. I thought so. I thought so. What'd you think of that?
SPEAKER_00What'd you think of that bull?
SPEAKER_01So BC Marathon would have been a bull that would have been phenotypically very outstanding. He was he was a wide-based, very proud-looking bull, you know. He would have been a bull that would have stamped some extra width and stoutness in it into his progeny. Average sized, you know. I guess one thing I would have changed is from a maternal standpoint, those daughters maybe weren't the wettest. So I would have probably put a little bit more maternal into those cattle. Phenotypically, they were really good, but you know, as any bull, as you get more progeny out there, you find holes in them. And the bull in marathon, I would have liked to made those cattle just a little bit better from a maternal standpoint. And you know, as those cattle age, they were pretty just average-footed cattle. I would have put a little better foot on them.
SPEAKER_00Better foot on them. So when you're doing procurement, you probably have a batting average, and it's probably not the highest batting average in the world. Because you but it's true. Because for every final answer, you probably have six thirds.
SPEAKER_01Oh, without a doubt. I mean, that's the thing. You know, these AI studs, you got to give them credit because they've they spend a lot of money to find the really good ones, and the really good ones that that sell a lot of semen don't come along that often.
SPEAKER_00Does that get aggravating for you doing that job being a guy that's procurement and you think you got a winner and nobody wants them?
SPEAKER_01Well, you just realize that that there's going to be a certain number that that don't turn out very good, or at least turn out the way you're hoping. So, I mean, it just gives you more ambition to to do better and find the best ones because you want to up your it's just like like you say, your batting average. If you're hitting poorly, you practice a little bit more and hopefully get better. So, you know, that's your goal is to get better. And you as with anything, you can't get discouraged discouraged. You just got to try harder and do better.
SPEAKER_00Can you think of a bull that you procured that you think us as purchasers really missed on? You know, thinking, man, I procured this bull. He should have had a far bet better, bigger impact than what he did. Can you think of one?
SPEAKER_01So I'll tell you a bull that just as I left Genics that so I can't take uh take credit for 100 procurement, but I was I was fairly involved with the bull. A bull right after I left Genek's and John Jansen would have taken the procurement position, it was probably a year after I left Gen X. Brent Thiel and I found a bull that we went and purchased, a bull called Copel's Advance. And that bull would have Brent and I purchased him in conjunction, and then the bull did go to Genek's. That bull, I think, got underutilized. And if you really look at our program today, and if you look at Brent Thiel's program, those those cattle had a pretty big influence in both of our programs from a maternal standpoint. Those cat, those those daughters were very productive, they were very fertile. The bull didn't get utilized much agenics. People were a little worried about the disposition in those cattle, and there was a little disposition in them, but I don't think anything out of, you know, nothing that was extreme where he shouldn't have been utilized, because that bull had a very large maternal influence in the background of our program and in the background of Brent Thiel's program. And I think the industry might have missed that.
SPEAKER_00Cobalt advances all over your pedigrees. Idillo Rasmussen, he's all over the pedigrees in your herd.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think if you really look at the background of the you know, the good donor cows here at Ellingston Angus are the really good donor cows at Thiel Ranch, he would land in about every one of those pedigrees. And because those cattle were productive and they were fertile. And I think you know, two really key components of being maternally right is they got to be productive and they got to be fertile.
SPEAKER_00Other than 004, who was their biggest win that you went out and purchased, you dug deep and got and was well received?
SPEAKER_01You know, we had some bulls that that would have had a pretty good go in them, you know, from you know 004, a couple other bulls that you know had a long shelf life on them. Of course, sits upward would have had a large influence in the breed. That's another bull that I would have procured. Game Day had a pretty good go there. He sure did. Um, you know, he had a couple hiccups in him, but uh probably the best New Day Sun ever. Yeah, he would have been a pretty good kind of breeding bull. Uh, you know, as cattle got older in life, those cattle probably too and all, you know, I no bones about it. I'm not saying that any bull that I ever would have procured would have been perfect. And so a lot of times I point out the good and the bad. You know, game day cattle were excellent from another standpoint. They were probably the right size and everything. Probably two things I'd have changed. They they could have used a little better disposition and feet could have been better. But other than that, the cattle were pretty good. You know, BCC Bushwacker also would have been a bull that that I would have procured that I think was, you know, a really good bull in his time.
SPEAKER_00Another bull that I before pass him, yeah. It wasn't like Bird was at the top of the game at that time. How did you identify that bull? I'm a big fan of Bushwhacker.
SPEAKER_01So I thought, yeah, I was there when Bushwhacker would have sold in the middle 90s in Denver in the Denver Bull sale. And he would have gone to Don Peterson in West Virginia. And I kind of followed that bull as a become procurement manager. That would have been one of the very first bulls that I would have that I would have leased for Gen X. You know, I thought just a no-holes type of bull that was having a big impact. I like the bull from a maternal standpoint. He was out of a really good dam. So that that bull, you know, was getting you utilized just a little bit, but then we would have procured him and he would have had a really good career at Gen X. Another bull that would have been kind of in that same time period that I would have procured would have been a bull by the name of Larks Canyon. He would have been an EXT son. That when we talk about bulls that probably got underutilized, that bull would have also been a bull that I think could have gotten more utilization in the breed. But, you know, just like I talked about with advanced, a couple hiccups there probably uh detoured the industry from using them. That bull did have a little disposition, but maternally, those those females were really good and they were really good at utter structured, even bolder sprung and more middle in them than the ext cattle themselves. All right. Well, I'm done terrorizing about your pri your career. Oh, I love you know, I liked it. That it was a great, it was a great career. I had a we had a good go at Gen X and you know, it was good times. So it's been fun talking about that, you know, uh bring up a little history of some of them bulls and so forth because it was fun.
SPEAKER_00It's fun to hear. So how do you identify those bulls? Because I'm sure you have pretty good hand in what bulls that the bulls that you have raised, how do those bulls get identified to go to other studs? Because I know you you have bulls at ST, Jennifer, but on Cyberbyer. How do you identify those for the studs? Or do you, or do they come and pick out their own?
SPEAKER_01Well, they you know, you know, every year I think, you know, bulls that will sift to the top of our program. You know, we're fortunate that most AI studs do come and sort through our bulls on a yearly basis. And we have good relationships with with, I think, every AI stud out there. We have the opportunity to have most of them stop here. They whether they stop here in the summertime, and most all of them will get through here prior to our bull sale in February. But, you know, how do we pick them out? Well, I think as you guys will ask ask us right now, well, what's a standout calf? Well, there's some standout calves, but until I think we get closer to yearling stage, you you really don't know. You know, some of these calves that look really good now by yearling time, maybe they've tapered off a bit. So it's you know, as you get them more towards yearling time, and you've collected all the data, and you know, you know the maternal lineage behind them, and a lot of you know, over half of our offering here at Ellington Angus, our bull offering now, are out of our donor cows. We're we're flushing a lot of cattle and you know, putting in 600 embryos a year. Well, maternally, we hope most all of the bulls would be maternally right out of a pretty good cow. So that probably is not as much of a question mark as are they gonna cover the other bases pretty well? Are they gonna the performance gonna be right? Is the structure just the way you need it? Because we're still a pretty big proponent that structurally they need to be right, they need to be phenotypically right, they need to be good footed and so forth. So, you know, do we pick them out? Not necessarily, but we do kind of land on that we're gonna use, and a lot of times we'll keep a half possession interest in three or four bulls that go through our sale. When we keep that possession interest, that kind of tells we sell 100% semen interest, and because we feel like we're not in the semen business, and that's probably something that that just has to do with the history of me being an AI business. You know, as when I procured bulls, I wanted to buy bulls. AI studs take that risk on buying those bulls. So I think if they turn out for them that they can sell a lot of semen, I want them to reap the benefits of financially they made that investment. So we sell 100% semen interest in these bulls, but we do you do we always do keep back three or four half possession interest, and that's kind of an indicator that we're pretty bought into those bulls. We're gonna use them back into our program. We're not, you know, sometime down the road we're asking if becomes available, we can turn those bulls back out for some natural service. Um, but it also is a pretty good indicator we're gonna AI to those bulls. And uh so I think that's what a lot of times AI studs will land on, knowing that we're gonna we're gonna test those bulls. I mean, that's a pretty good marriage for an AI stud if you know the breeder's gonna use utilize that bull back in their program. If they're gonna AI, they're gonna prove them. I mean, that's that's that's a pretty big benefit to an A if we're gonna if we're gonna help prove that bull and help promote that bull, even if we don't have semen interest ownership in that bull. So, you know, we land on those bulls because like I talked about before, all the we utilize all the tools in the toolbox and they have had to, you know, be towards the top of a pretty large contemporary group in here to to sift to the top for us to utilize them. How big are your groups? Well, you know, we do market there we run about a thousand cows here, so we've you know, in our spring group of calves, we've got about 750 calves. So at the end of the day, you know, uh we got a couple contemporary groups, obviously, just but our contemporary groups on our calves could, you know, the larger contemporary group could be 150 calves or so in a contemporary group of a certain sex. So, you know, at least in our spring-born contemporary groups. So it you know, we do have fairly large contemporary groups at times.
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SPEAKER_01I don't know if there's any certain bull that really put us on the map. You know, a bull that would have been utilized quite a lot would have been Ellingson Prolific, that would have been at ST Genetics. Of course, he was a third largest registration bull in the Angus breed last year. So that bull got utilized a lot. You know, a bull that I think has had a really good influence on the breed is Ellingston Badlands. The Badlands, you look at a lot of the programs that would have utilized him, whether it be our own program, you know, to date, we've sold over two, well, actually, this would have been prior to the sons that we sold this year. We'd have sold over 250 direct sons of Badlands in our sale. And there's still guys that that want to buy Badland sons. And whether it be other programs also that have utilized Badlands, whether it be Brent Theel that's utilized Badlands a lot, the Raven Angus have utilized Badlands a lot. You know, a lot of that sell a lot of bulls, Badlands have had a pretty positive influence. And, you know, I think there's going to be a couple sons out there moving forward, uh, whether it be the longevity bull that that we've sold to Slack Sires or a couple other Badlands sons that are getting utilized quite heavily now. That you know, that bull's having a pretty big play in the Angus breed.
SPEAKER_00All right, trying to make me do this hard one. Prolific, fairly new generation bull there. Um Ellingson been well known far before Prolific. So we gotta dig a little deeper than that.
SPEAKER_01Well, there's been bulls, you know, that have been utilized, whether it's been, you know, a bull like Rough Rider, the great grandsire of, you know, that would have been at Gen X, one of our bulls years ago, a bull that you got utilized from a cabinese standpoint a lot. You know, we would have we'd also bought a bull, and I talk about bulls that would have come from bull tests and you know, smaller breeders, a bull called CDS Remedy that would have come out of Tennessee. Um, a bull that I would have purchased. We purchased as Lankson Angus after up to a year or two after I would have departed from Gen X, that then would have gone and you know gotten utilized quite a bit. He would have gone to Slack Sires, got utilized quite a lot. You know, a couple other bulls that would have been direct sons of of remedy, you know, homegrown would have been a bull that would have been at Gen X that got a fair amount of usage. So we've been fortunate enough to get those bulls that have kind of been in the AI industry, gotten a fair amount of usage over the years.
SPEAKER_00So there we go. Now we're getting now we're getting to the real story. Those listening to this podcast, CTS Remedy, I can't remember what year you purchased him, probably about 2012, 2013. Correct. Because I would have left Gen X in 2011, so probably about 13 would have been would have been correct. He's a son of Connie Lee Thunder, Kavany East specialist, and then he had two sons, not one son, we had two sons, one named one homegrown, Ellingston homegrown, and then we got Ellingston Homestead. Yeah, Homestead would have gone to ST genetics.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And and got a fair amount of usage. And when you talk about, you know, thinking about that, when we talk about bulls that that I would have procured at my during my Gen X time, this is just made me think of it. A bull that I'd be pretty proud of that that I also would have procured during my time at Gen X would have been Neely Thunder. That's that would have been a bull that I would have purchased with I would have had uh big influence in purchasing for Gen X. I think a bull that had a pretty lasting impact on the breed also is Thunder.
SPEAKER_00He did. I think Spilo is still trying to get Thunder Siemen. He was extremely limited, and it's but it's pretty darn costly to get it. But a lot of people are still trying to dig that stuff out.
SPEAKER_01You know, some other bulls that would have, you know, we wouldn't have sold over the years, whether you talk about them sons of remedy, the chaps bull would have gone to abs uh a number of years ago, a resource son that you know had a fair amount of play that would have marketed a fair amount of semen. So, you know, some of those bulls that yeah, they would have seen some usage over the years, but I think the ones of the last two to three years are seeing a fair amount more usage, the ones that have landed in AI studs and uh, you know, are doing a fairly good job as far as some of their top sales leaders today, talking to Gen X, the Ellings and Prosper bull is their top-selling bull for 2006 so far. He he's a prolific son, correct? He's a prolific son. He would have been our top-selling bull two years ago. So that bull would have seen a lot of usage the last two years. Like I say, the top-selling bull at Gen X today. I think he would have been one or two at Gen X for semen sales last year.
SPEAKER_00The Ellings and Lakota bull. Well, we can't just go past this. So Prosper, he's at Gen X. He's got he's got a little more carcass than what Ellingson normally has. So he does.
SPEAKER_01And uh, you know, interestingly enough, we're probably not recognized as as necessarily carcass breeders. You know, we've always felt that to take a balanced approach to breeding cattle and not being extreme on any traits. And so that bull is a, you know, you won't probably find a lot of Ellington bulls that are over one on marbling. We, you know, we try to keep marbling, but there we it's never been a trait that we necessarily chased. And I guess Prosper does have a fair amount of marbling. He's he's well over one on marbling, so not an extreme marbling bull, but ranks pretty high in that trait, yes. He's a he would be a bull that that would add some substance and some performance and a little more carcass merit.
SPEAKER_00Speaking of substance, you seem to have two different style of bulls going on within your herd. These prolific type cattle, a little deeper, a little soggier, appear to be a little fleshier, and then you got these athletic, muscular monsters like the three rivers. Was that done intentionally?
SPEAKER_01So, you know, three rivers probably would be a bull that that would have been more out of our not necessarily our typical phenotype of an animal. You know, that bull would have sired more mature size than than we typically would would want here at Ellingston Jeanette or Ellingston Angus. Those cattle were tremendous performance cattle. And that bull just kind of interestingly enough, like Three Rivers Dam, is a very moderate chap's cow, very moderate to little individual cow. But that bull did he did sire a lot of size. And you know, for somebody that was really wanting at Performance at a lot of growing them cattle, he would do that. Now, maternally, he's probably not the right bull. I mean, them cattle had a little bit too large a large and mature size. So typically he would be a bull that would be a little different than what we'd typically offer. But there was a lot of, you know, one thing about it is commercial guys still sell calves by the pound, and they could buy those sends of three rivers, turn them out on their cows, and maybe not necessarily from a daughter-raising standpoint, but to just get some some cattle that had some pounds and growing them. So they're cattle that really they're they were a different kind than typically we we market, but they had their place. They would they'd be cattle that our commercial customers could purchase to almost use from a terminal standpoint. And I think we need to recognize all all the time is there's cattle that will do different things. Now, if you're wanting to replaise a set of replacement females, probably Three Rivers wasn't the type, but you know, a lot of our other bulls are the type, but you know, he was more for our commercial clientele that wanted just add some pounds and pay weight to their cattle and not necessarily make replacement females.
SPEAKER_00So I think it's just willing to you know just recognize that. Where did the size come from him on on him? Because you know, remedy wasn't huge, he wasn't a huge bull, and he is chassis. Homestead was a pretty good sized bull, and was he?
SPEAKER_01You know, home homestead was a bull that had a little more grow and a little bit more frame to him. And you know, interestingly enough, the background of of Homestead's Dam, you know, going back to Sitz Alliance, there shouldn't have been a lot of size, but there was some size in that cow family on Homestead. And I think that just came through. And you know how genetics can work sometimes, it shows up. And Homestead probably was a reason for those cattle just having a little more size and growth. And they had a lot of size that, you know, three rivers, I would tell you, could be very competitive from a gainability standpoint in any situation as far as against any probably any breed of cattle. But you know, that was their uniqueness, and you had to utilize them from for that trait. You know, you from a mature cow size, they would get a little big. So guys that you know need and we need to look at mature cow size, he would make them probably bigger than you typically want.
SPEAKER_00But from a gainability standpoint, they were terrific. I get to go a lot of sales every year, and you could pick out his sons. He threw a phenotype. He definitely threw a solid phenotype.
SPEAKER_01And they there's a lot of three-river sons that topped a lot of sales because they just flat out performed, and and guys that were, you know, would gravitate to to need some extra performance, they kind of were standouts. You know, I think our numbers, when you look at it, you know, the numbers don't lie. Those cattle performed maternally. The dollar M index isn't as high because some cattle had a little bit too mature cow size to them. So I, you know, as as guys want to either get down on the numbers or think the numbers are right, I think those numbers are pretty accurate.
SPEAKER_00I'm gonna tell a little story here. About a year ago, I called Chad Ellingson on the phone because I had a question for him. I was interested in this Rangeland bull and prolific. And I had a little bit of a concern on prolific. I thought there might be a little issue with hair here in Tennessee, and I wasn't sure. I liked some of the projecting I'd seen out of it, especially over at Croftmole's sale. But I felt like Rangelin might have a little less hair on it, but that was just a feeling that wasn't knowledge. So I gave Chad a call, and and he immediately told me to forget prolific as far as the South, that he felt he was a little bit too hairy for me. We talked about Rangelin for a little bit and kind of poo-pooed that bull. He said some nice things about him, some solid things, but he didn't really sell the bull to me very hard. And then I started digging through some of these pedigrees on these bulls that you have in all these studs. And that's thinking Rangelin shows up time and time again in these pedigrees. Chad, I think you're trying to undersell me your bull. Talk about Rangelin.
SPEAKER_01So here's the deal, and I try to never oversell an individual because I think you know, I'll tell you the good and the bad about them, and I think then you can take it from there. I never try to oversell a bull because I always want people to be pleasantly more surprised than than when they utilize a bull and be extremely happy. Rangeland's been a good bull. I mean, from a maternal standpoint, those count are pretty dang good. You know, I'll tell you the good and the bad. The the sons are probably just average from a performance standpoint, average from a stoutness standpoint. But when you get those rangeland daughters in production, you'll want more of them because they're very productive, they're extremely fertile, they're good-footed, and very nice uttered. They're not the biggest cows in the world. They're just nice wedge-shaped cattle that they're very productive and breed back every year and have a lasting impact. And when you look at the, you're correct, the some of the really good bulls that that are now going that are Ellingson's bulls, whether it be the Lakota bull at uh Ulta Genetics that's having an extremely good go as far as you know being their top semen sale selling bull, or or the brazen bull that uh would have been our top selling bull a year ago that would have gone to ABS, that is in their top tier of bulls that are they're being marketed in one of their high-selling bulls today, both of them out of Rangeland Daughters. So yeah, that bull is has has hit is gonna have a lasting impact. And really, some of our best young donor cows here are the are the rangeland daughters.
SPEAKER_00You said the suns aren't outstanding, but thankfully SG Genetics sells uh female semen.
SPEAKER_01Well, and I won't say they're bad, but they're probably not as, you know, if you were gonna come a couple years ago and which bulls, you know, the prolific sons would have probably stood out more from a stoutness standpoint, performance standpoint than the rangeland daughters. But at the same time, we sold the high-range bull that would have been a direct rangeland son that would have gone to Hamilton's uh the same year that Prolific would have sold. And you know, that bull had a big impact and a bull that we utilized a fair amount back into our program here. And is you're seeing a lot of usage of him and especially a couple of his sons today. So, you know, it they're at least competitive from a bull standpoint, also.
SPEAKER_00And his teeth and udder scores are pretty darn good, really good.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, the the Rangeland daughters, I think that's the most unique thing about him. The he will weld a nice udder on him from a teet placement standpoint to to a four-utter attachment to a really good ligament. I mean, it's a beautiful udder. Do you still use them back on your herd? We actually we have not used rangeland because we've got a lot of daughters and we're we've got a large influence, and we're really we're utilizing his genetics from the next generation down. Now, you know, the bull that you know, we've used Lakota a fair amount, and the bull that we're utilizing very heavily today and have a lot of progeny on the ground, and we'll have a lot more progeny next year is the brazen bull. We think that bull is pretty unique and and will have a lasting impact on our program. And that's where we're getting more of the rangeland genetics. We're on to the next generation now.
SPEAKER_00Because of the amount of content that Chad Ellinson gave me, this is episode one with Ellinson Angus. Thank you for listening to Angus Hurt Talk. Chad gave me a lot of content with this interview, so I'm splitting this up into two episodes. And this was episode one, and in two weeks I will release the second episode. Thank you for listening.